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herself_nyc ([info]herself_nyc) wrote in [info]herself_nyc_fic,
@ 2008-02-10 14:49:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:distance: redacted part

A note about process for those who are interested
This section of the fic has been redacted. I've left it here as an out-take.



This part was really REALLY hard to write. Not merely to write, but to come up with. I fooled with it all day Saturday and couldn't make it come right, and I've been at it today for a few hours too. It was difficult to imagine how Buffy and Spike would relate, what they could say to each other. Whereas most of this fic has pretty much pounded itself out, the dialogue and scenes piling up in my head as fast or faster than I could offload them, like planes at JFK lined up for take-off, the last couple of parts have been really challenging, wringing such emotional exhaustion out of the characters--and me, I guess--that I was really at a loss how to move them forward, especially as I was mindful of not wanting to succumb to cliche or the easy immediate choices. (I don't know if I succeeded in avoiding either, but I was trying.)

The subject matter here has gotten really dark--I guess it's been dark from the beginning of the fic, but now it feels to me like it's dovetailing with things going on in the real world in a way that makes me feel kind of solemn and responsible as I work on this. I find myself thinking about the experience of people who go off and have really awful prolonged ordeals--soldiers in Iraq or in any war, for instance, or people who escape unimaginable hardship events like genocides, and then are able to return to the setting and people of their previous life, except that they are so altered by their experience which they perhaps can't really talk about or convey to those who weren't there, that they can't just fit back into things or begin to meet the expectations of those around them, or their own expectations.

And it feels weird to be thinking about these really serious terrible human occurrences, which are more and more prevalent in our contemporary world, in the context of writing fanfic about Buffy the Vampire Slayer for chrissakes, and it generally feels kind of presumptuous to try as a writer in comfortable circumstances to put myself into the headspace of someone who has really suffered and try to tap that for the kind of fiction that's really just supposed to be escapist and porny and satisfactory of various narrative kinks, an entertainment. But it seems that when the writing is really on the boil, things just go where they go, and it would be a disservice to the story, to me as a writer, to you as readers, to pull back on it. I was reading a piece in a recent issue of The New Yorker over breakfast, where the painter John Currin was talking about his recent work, which is of a pornographic nature, somewhat to his own discomfort, and he says "You should never will a change in your work--you have to work an idea to death." This really jumped out at me, not merely in the context of this particular piece of fanfic but in the context of my own ongoing controversy with myself about writing fanfic at all, and it also resonated with some ideas, uncertainties, doubts etc I grapple with about my novel in progress and what it's about, what all my writing has been about, because all my writing life I've dealt with this strong push-back within myself that what I'm drawn to write about isn't what I should write about.


Anyway, I just wanted to acknowledge, while in the midst of it, the complexity of feelings and thoughts that writing Distance is bringing up for me, because these things are very fleeting and forgettable as I barrel along. And this post is fairly incoherent, but there it is.



(Post a new comment)


(Anonymous)
2008-02-10 08:35 pm UTC (link)
You SO did not succumb to cliche or immediate choices. I am always eager to read your next installment, but I usually don't jump to the end of a posting to see how it turns out. Actually, I started to this time but stopped myself, partly b/c I read this before I read the posting and I didn't want to mess up your prolonging with my own impatience.

I don't have any first-hand knowledge about those horrible kinds of situations that you describe above, but I imagine that reunion is a process that takes place in steps, or maybe even lurches. It's probably not a smooth slope (except in the sense that the passage of time probably helps in and of itself), and I picture a series of awkward moments, missteps that end up undoing earlier progress, and then also some small miracles. So, to the extent that my ignorant speculation matters at all, I think you're doing an amazing job of conveying it.

((I've been sitting here for like 10 minutes remembering how I had a chance to hang out with Clea Koff, author of The Bone Woman, who's a forensic anthropologist and one of the people who exhumed and investigated enormous mass graves in Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia. We talked a lot about coming back from that kind of experience. I told her that I seriously couldn't imagine dealing with something like that and not ending up killing myself in an alcohol- and PTSD-induced fog. AND ... drum roll ... I am totally drawing a blank on the kinds of things she said, other than the obvious. So apparently my thinking that I had something substantial to contribute was a total false alarm. And of course, she chose to be in those places, and there was a purpose to her presence there, so it wasn't the same kind of traumatic experience.))

And remember, Buffy itself was all fun and indulgent, but then also dealt with some really heavy shit, too. Your writing has always drawn me because even when it's porny and stuff, it's got substance and asks serious questions. And I'm sure many of your readers think so, too. And part of the pleasure of writing fanfic in general, other than wish-fulfillment, is stretching yourself and checking out new internal territory where you haven't spent a lot of time before.

Sorry so long. I really appreciate your talking about the process. And I'm loving the story, as usual. I'm dying to hear what happened to Spike, and for them to get some serious comfort from each other!

XO

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2008-02-10 09:01 pm UTC (link)
I deliberately commented, briefly on the fic before reading the process. I get what you are saying, I think, that approaching through huge themes fanfic may seem presumptuous, but I don't think what you are achieving here is in any way inappropriate or light. The pain is self evident and the difficulty of people seperated not being able to reconnect because of their experiences is an important one.

I hope, fortunately for these characters, the experiences they've each had will prove enough.

I read in another fandom mostly. It gives me problems because of my day job because there are veins I cannot touch for having seen the reality, although there are writers who are writing from personal experience. I think the advantage of 'fantasy' is the 'one remove'.

Life isn't simple, is it?!
Portions of our life and experience overlap and interact and give hang ups!

Your story has captured my imagination like nothing else I'm reading at the moment, I think because of all the powerful themes explored.

fred

(Reply to this)


[info]kd0206
2008-02-10 09:40 pm UTC (link)
I always felt you dealt well in large themes-one of the reasons I follow what you write. (Reiterating the depth and substance in the other post.) As for it being fan fiction...Spike struck me first, those many years ago, as an archetypal figure and I think that bears out still with the fandom going on and on. Forget the "little black dress" aspect: this is a figure that evokes big themes. I think you're couragous for addressing this, especially the way your addressing it. Big thank you.

(Reply to this)

Distance
(Anonymous)
2008-02-10 10:56 pm UTC (link)
Firstly, your stories are always something special, because you don´t make it easy for anyone, and it´s good that way.
Also, there is no SHOULD write, there is always only your inspiration. What we should write is obviously not the topic the subconscious thinking agrees on, neither does it represent or improve the state of development of our soul. Never forget who you write for. It´s you. So if the in-depth analysis of the origin, nature, the effect and the healing of pain is something your soul needs, go ahead. The outcome so far was amazing.

For the story, I think the example of the returning soldiers was a bit misplaced, because different to those who stayed home and can´t possibly understand what the soldiers went through, in this case, Buffy would be the one who is able to get it, because she has been through so much herself. She is the one, who could possibly comprehend.

(Reply to this)

My two cents...
(Anonymous)
2008-02-10 11:02 pm UTC (link)
[shadowkat67 from lj here since not insanejournal usesr and how amusing - it asked me to confirm that I was a human below...which begs the question, who else would be responding? Gerbils?]

What you write here struck a chord in me. I wrote a post the other day about how we tend to respond favorably to art which touches us on some level, moves us. That speaks to us.

I think this is true about writing as well. I know when I write and I've been struggling with my writing lately, that I find myself pushing against that which I want to write and that which I feel I should write. When I'm at my best - is when I write what I know, or rather know about. The tough emotional landscape of a character, the real world as opposed to my fantasy one. Yet, I struggle with it. Constantly. Even now.

You are interesting writer. One of the few fanfic writers and online writers that I've read that continues to intrigue me. I'm no longer interested in fanfic and rarely read it, but find myself checking yours out from time to time. Why? You appear to be interested in more than just the sex, the plot, who ends up with whom - you are interested in the murky emotional and psychological landscape of your characters hearts/minds and souls and by extension the human psyche and soul. You appear in your writing to be interested in how someone feels, what draws them to another, and the internal conflicts that make it difficult for them to connect to others, especially those they love - the conflict in your stories is seldom external so much as internal - something inside the psyche of the character that is preventing them from being with the one they love. I noticed this in your novel What Love Means to You People - mostly because I identified with it. It spoke to me. And I see it here in the post above. How does someone who has been in a horrible ordeal, who has literally been drug through hell - seen and done things we can't quite imagine...handle coming home to their loved ones, who haven't seen these things? How does war change a person? How does violence? Sort of like Buffy in S6 - how could she deal with those she loved having been dead? Or Willow in S7 - how do you face people after you've tried to destroy the world? Or Angel in S3 - how do you handle your lover after she sent you to hell to save the world from the hell you almost crashed down upon it? Or in the case of an Iraqi vet - how to deal with your everyday life when you saw people blown up by land mines and got used to using a gun as a means of protection?

These are things that also, by the way, attract me to Whedon's writing.

In regards to porn, eroticism, escapism....I don't know why you can't examine larger and more interesting themes within the wrappings of these, or within fanfic? Isn't fanfic just another means of communicating with others?
So much of fanfic feels repetitive to me to be bluntly honest. Repeats of old Harelquin and Rosemary Rodgers romance novels, with the same plot, same archetypes, and tropes repeated. I'll be halfway through and think, dang, I've read this before...where...oh wait, over ten years ago in a romance novel or I saw it in a tv movie or daytime soap opera. It's almost as if the writer is re-writing their favorite romance and just substituting Buffy and Spike for the main characters, the twist? Spike's a vampire, unless of course its AU fic and everyone is human. I usually gave up on the story at that point. Since I already knew what was going to happen. I'd already read it.

For whatever it is worth, I think what often makes a story stand out, makes it memorable is when the writer is interested in exploring that murky area, the unexplored terrain, the tough bits. Otherwise the writing feels a bit like one is following a pre-arranged pattern - like one of those old choose your own adventure stories or madlibs - where you merely fill in the blanks in someone elses pre-written tale.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: My two cents...
(Anonymous)
2008-02-11 08:53 am UTC (link)
the thing that comes to me is that we all suffer through life - some of us through the an extreme circumstance and some through the everyday tearing away of love and loved ones - what is that Hindu-Buddhist tenet "all life is sorrowful." While there are thousands upon thousands of horrors of such extremes like the perpetual warfare we engage in there is also the horror of losing people we love through the natural life cycle of old age or from terrible diseases.

Going to the dark places of human life in this work, and all your fan fiction is what makes it meaningful both to you and to your readers. And as one of the posts stated - Buffy took us to a lot of shit. And why these characters are still so compelling is because we saw real life and all the ugly that goes with it.

Sorry for the rambling, as I am not use to trying to write what I am thinking this is difficult for me. You should write about what is important to you and if that is about the darkness that lives inside of us or the darkness and utter chaos that life entraps us with. And you are right, there are somethings that people cannot come back from - My mother never got over the death of her eldest son, everyday she suffers from it still. Every time that I slice an orange, I am forced to think of my nephew and how he like loved those wedges - except that now, that slice has been transformed into a sorrow and remembrance of that young nephew that will spend the next 25 years in a prison for being a foolish young man. I guess what I am trying to say, is you have to go into the darkness, because if you are going to be honest and continue to grow to be the best writer that you can, you just have to go there and you have to take your readers with you.

One thing that is important to remember, is that most of your fan fiction readers cannot put into words what happens to them or what they think - it's the writers that can do this for us -

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]twilightofmagic
2008-02-11 08:22 am UTC (link)
It'll be interesting to see how you pull them out of this one. In terms of the change after terrible experiences, surely Spike is the one who might come back changed. The descriptions of Buffy in an almost dissociative state seem to fit him rather than her. She may be projecting into his mental state, but of the two of them, he seems to be more normal, wanting and able to connect, even though there are hints that perhaps he is damaged by the ripping out of this dimension.

In any case, (and FWIW) what does this new complication do in terms of the overall energy arc of the story. They've gone through repeated missed moment through misunderstandings, his shattered memory and traumatized reactions to events. He's been taken away by Ilyria and fought his way back and now to a Buffy who somewhat inexplicably is reacting as the PTS victim.

Once more, FWIW, I'm guessing that something else got into the story here. Clearly the desire to break out of fanfic expectations for the moment, the happy reunion etc. I wonder if there's a cross-over here between the novel that's not writing itself in your head right now and this story that has so far been operating within the conventions of fanfiction writing, though at the very high level of skill you bring to it. Just a gut feel on my part and I don't want to offend you by saying it here. It's just that you've raised some interesting questions about writing process.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]rainkatt
2008-02-21 04:38 pm UTC (link)
I'm way behind, and slightly feverish, but I'd like to throw my two cents in here. My SO is a Vietnam vet. My ex was in the Navy and went on long deployments. Sometimes things happened. I never, ever heard details. Once in a while, the SO will still have a flashback, and it's not pretty, but it's not always apparent what's going on. I don't know what to do--and it's weird when they come back after 6-9 months, and have been in this realm somewhere. I cannot imagine what Buffy's going through under the circumstances. You do withdraw, you get angry, you are sometimes terrified. It's a form of grief for that person you used to know, and every single military spouse experiences it on some level, no matter how engaged, strong, or independent they are. It is a form of PTSD. She's not going to just fall into his arms. She's not going to act "normal." She's going to be terrified of who he is this time. She's going to do crazy things. Case in point: after one particularly harrowing deployment (I heard more from news on TV than letters, and still had no idea what they were doing.), with two extensions, when my husband finally got home, I, the definition of horny bitch, wouldn't allow him to touch me for a week. I cried a lot. And then, it was as though he was there and we were back, and it got better. Also. It's really easy to leave someone with PTSD, because it's frustrating and scary and you feel so alone.

Spike seems to be pretty much back, but who knows? And he knew he was coming back. She didn't.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]twilightofmagic
2008-02-21 06:41 pm UTC (link)
What you've described so eloquently, Rainkatt is the hidden damage of the terrible events military people go through and often just can't talk about. I'm so sorry to hear that you've gone through this with your SO and your ex. My father and uncle experienced the same when they came back from WWII and it persisted for years though not so much was known about the psychological effects of those kinds of experiences. A friend's son who was in the first wave into Iraq and his family has been devastated by his PTSD. She, his mother, was against the war and was beside herself to see her son come home destroyed. It's all too sad for words.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]rainkatt
2008-02-21 08:14 pm UTC (link)
She, his mother, was against the war and was beside herself to see her son come home destroyed.

That is so sad, and it's really frustrating, because any expression against the war can seem like a betrayal of him. But it's not. Vastly hard to balance... and not just fall apart. And pretty much nothing that feels like a normal reaction is RIGHT. Something that feels like the right kind of thing to do may be rejected, and may even cause anger. As I said, frustrating.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2008-02-11 08:58 am UTC (link)
Your writing is profound and you're not scared to go on those rarely traveled roads. You titillate but you also make the reader THINK..that's what gives you staying power. I am so glad you continue to pour yourself into your writing. I have enjoyed your stories for your years now and I hope that you can offer your art to us for a little while longer.

A loyal fan,

---kimmiefae

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(Anonymous)
2008-02-11 05:30 pm UTC (link)
read the last two chapters again - probably will go back and read several earlier as well -

The one thing that has always stayed in my mine while reading this work is the question of guilt and regrets - How would all this play out in the mind of a woman who might feel that her acts, or lack of action, were a vital part and cause for the horrors that happen to another. This guilt, based on truth or not, would be such a terrible thing to live with. In going back to your mention of soldiers and the wars of the Middle East - how would a mother feel that sent her son off to war with her blessings of "go fight for your country and democracy" and have him come back destroyed from that war - on top of all this, what happens to that mother when she is confronted with the realities of the politics and economic foundations that wars are really based on? Can't help but think of "Johnny Got His Gun" (sorry if the title is wrong) "All Quiet On The Western Front" - How would that mother deal with the guilt from having her son or daughter come back in a coffin, or worst, see what happens to that child as they fall into a living hell? This idea of guilt and deep remorse for her past acts/inactions, feel on a gut level, as a vital part of this piece.

nmcil

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Distance and my 2 cents worth
[info]pearlseed
2008-02-11 05:05 pm UTC (link)
Miz Herself, I know that you have worked hard to make this story appear and
you have, by the strength of your will, won all of us who are devouring this story so completely. It's like the biblical quote, "whither thou goest, go I". I would say I have no choice, but that isn't true. My choice for spending my precious time with this story is all mine--and I do so becos you haven't written easy (and lord knows I've prayed a few times you would).

The other stories I've read (most notably A terrible thing) really sets me on my ear. You don't put it out there like a formula--there are so many shades of gray for you, that I can be encouraged to see, love, endure with the right vehicle. Not my first choice to find the hardest thing in the world of fan fiction to love--but you have pretty much ruined me for most other authors. What you talked about is life and life is--this manner of addressing these issues is intense for "fun" but it is the way of the world.

I like the line about the audience being able to see so perfectly--all the while the actor is in this mental straightjacket that keeps one from reaching out in that manner--and sometimes even when one has been able to reach out, it's just not the time, not ripe yet, or the time is past, or what can finally be said just isn't enough. For Buffy, she convinced herself that he was dead. Even in the astounding joy over his return, that is a price to pay. Even in the stunning supreme act of fighting his way back to her, there is a price he has to pay.

I may not always like what I read from your stories,(Xander and Spike together for 60 years, what a concept--then next story, he meets up with Buffy, finally for their life together), but I love them becos they are true. There's a noticeable shortage of true in the world and I must insist you keep dishing it out of your agile brain so that I can benefit from it. Good, bad, indifferent, I'm yours--praise, joy, any attendant tears, yours.

Keep struggling, please--I rather felt you were working as hard to write this as we were to read it. You are like good Thai food of writing--spicy, not the usual, unique and desirable. Peace, Miz Herself, and I was right before, you do come from a family of high wire artists, poised without a net to perform the most rare and death-defying stunts I've ever seen. None of us can ever look away nor do we desire to.

(Reply to this)

let's get personal!
(Anonymous)
2008-02-12 10:14 am UTC (link)
This note of yours addressed an ever present sentiment: should I indulge in fanfiction given what happens in real life, real world? Is it a waste and a shame? Is it enough that I like it and it doesn't hurt except for a little time lost? Since I don't have answers, I offer a few considerations. I live in an ancient city, and I'm in historical places quite often; while the Important Art on the walls and pedestals excites my senses and intellect, at times my heart is just struck by the work of the unknown artisan that matched those marble slabs with perfect taste, or the whimsical details that are embedded in an ornamental cornice. Not "Art" proper, but an integral part of the whole. Without all that surrounding what you have is museum art: noble pieces withdrawn from their natural feeling (not horribly wrong, but different). Doesn't craftsmanship and minor arts have rights of persistence, too? Another thought. I know the creative person at work, and they work a lot. Sometimes no matter how hard they apply, it's a complete bust, the results of many days to be thrown away. Sometimes concentration has to leave room to a kind of stream of consciousness dealing, and the results can be brilliant or rubbish, but in any case you're probably refreshed and ready to go back to "serious" stuff. Brain/hand needs to work all the time, but it doesn't need to be always practical about it. Poetry point: poetry does not follow straight ways. They'll speak about certain moments and objects, and while you're distracted with the imagery they'll hit your mind with something completely different, really strike your own chords intimately. So we are enjoying tales of fantastic worlds with heroes and demons, but we are actually extracting from it feelings and reactions that we have to experience in some way. Not talking about lack of glamour in real life, fact is that too often one cannot express oneself at the right time and to the right people, so sublimation can be useful. Stimulating, too. There was an interview with an actor on the news, he was asked about an explicit sex scene in a movie, and he was a bit miffed with the interviewer, and said that it was a movie about life, and in life sex happens. Some fun and games are not the end of the world. I'll keep squandering a bit of precious time on a little erotic fanfiction and silliness, right or wrong are definitions a little too confining. Fondly, Riccadonna.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

and,
(Anonymous)
2008-02-12 10:25 am UTC (link)
why can't I have spaces and new paragraphs on this form? Non-gerbils and non-spams have to have some rights! (Riccadonna)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2008-02-13 01:30 am UTC (link)
This is the same person who posted the first comment (hmmm, I guess at this point you can just think of me as "XO.") Anyway, I have skimmed the other comments and read the next two installments, and I just want to say ... OK, this is heavy stuff, and you're doing a great job with it, and you do write the most interesting fanfic, with a lot of depth ... but, I gotta say, you also write the best SEX. I love that it's not all about the sex, but at the same time ... whew ... let's not knock some fabulous sex scenes in a nice plotty, serious, thought-provoking fic!

:-)

XO

PS -- Hey! The confirmation doesn't talk about us proving we're human anymore! And here I was enjoying all the other possibilities of nonliterate beings.

(Reply to this)


[info]rainkatt
2008-02-21 04:42 pm UTC (link)
I promised myself I was going to read as much of this as there is now. But I'm not sure any comment I will make will be coherent--see above, to twilightofmagic. I think you're doing a great job with this so far, and I understand Buffy's reactions within the context of my own experience of having a loved one go away, only to return changed, or in the case of the Loon, someone I think I know changing within minutes to someone I've never met. Thanks for the commentary.

(Reply to this)



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