InsaneJournal Announcements

Potential Move to AWS

InsaneJournal Announcements

Potential Move to AWS

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I'm reading through the AWS Acceptable Use Policy. I don't think anything there precludes hosting InsaneJournal there. I feel that our existing Terms of Service falls in line with this. I'd love to have an open discussion about this, so please comment with concerns. Please keep all conversations civil.

No Illegal, Harmful, or Offensive Use or Content

* You may not use, or encourage, promote, facilitate or instruct others to use, the Services or AWS Site for any illegal, harmful, fraudulent, infringing or offensive use, or to transmit, store, display, distribute or otherwise make available content that is illegal, harmful, fraudulent, infringing or offensive. Prohibited activities or content include:

* Illegal, Harmful or Fraudulent Activities. Any activities that are illegal, that violate the rights of others, or that may be harmful to others, our operations or reputation, including disseminating, promoting or facilitating child pornography, offering or disseminating fraudulent goods, services, schemes, or promotions, make-money-fast schemes, ponzi and pyramid schemes, phishing, or pharming.

* Infringing Content. Content that infringes or misappropriates the intellectual property or proprietary rights of others.

* Offensive Content. Content that is defamatory, obscene, abusive, invasive of privacy, or otherwise objectionable, including content that constitutes child pornography, relates to bestiality, or depicts non-consensual sex acts.

* Harmful Content. Content or other computer technology that may damage, interfere with, surreptitiously intercept, or expropriate any system, program, or data, including viruses, Trojan horses, worms, time bombs, or cancelbots.
  • My main concern is I know a lot of people use the site for RolePlaying and some people could say that this goes against "Infringing Content. Content that infringes or misappropriates the intellectual property or proprietary rights of others."
  • As the vast majority of users I know use this as a platform for roleplay, I think we'd run into a lot of issues. What some writers enjoy writing could be considered infringing on content. Others could be labeled offensive content.

    I'd, personally, rather suffer the small bit of downtime we experience than have to worry about censorship of my content.
  • The only problem I see with this is that some of the content of roleplaying could violate the offensive content cause. Some roleplayers explore any and all topics in their writings, especially in PSLs where its just you and a writing partner you trust and there is a possibility of the offensive content being violated. Or does this apply only to public content and locked entries would still be alright since only certain people can see locked entries?
  • Hey, roleplayer here! Just echoing what a lot of people have already said. There would be a lot of issues. Basically, it would force all of us rpers to move to dreamwidth :\ not ideal, to say the least.
  • Also voicing RP concern, as I feel this would make things difficult for us. The site doesn't go down enough to really need changing and I'd prefer to stay where we are. It just seems unnecessary.
  • Came here to say the same thing as everyone else, really. There are so, so many roleplayers on this site, and I'd hate to see InsaneJournal take the same kind of downwards route that a lot of previous platforms have. (Strikethrough-Boldthrough...)

    I'm concerned about the "offensive" content clause, because I feel like that could be somewhat subjective, and a lot of people use IJ to express themselves through their fictional writing. As another user said, I'm curious if that pertains solely to public content, or if personal private writings between friends count as well. Either way, I'm really worried this is about to alienate a LOT of users, myself included.
  • I agree with the others. It looks like rping wouldn't necessarily work well there, and then I would have no reason to use IJ.
  • I'm curious what your motivation for this is. Cheaper than current hosting?
  • I use IJ primarily for RP. It looks like the Ts and Cs on that server would make me very wary of posting anything - just in case it's seen as infringing copyright. I imagine all the iconmakers on here would have similar concerns.
  • Does the offensive content/infringing content policy only apply if content is publicly available for consumption? What if the entries are locked for privacy?

    I think those questions need to be answered either by AWS or a competent attorney.
  • Just like everyone else who has commented this, I only use IJ to roleplay. I would be nervous about the language claiming invasions of privacy, fraudulent content or seeing as hurting someone's reputation... as basically RPing is pretending to be someone else with the understanding that everyone knows you're pretending. Unless there's something that says RPing is acceptable, all of this language sounds very anti-RP.

    I would be infinitely more inclined to donate to some cause for you to buy new hardware in order to keep my various permanent accounts and journals I've spent a lot of money on than switching to a server that would render all those accounts useless. Especially when the outages are really not that big of a deal.
  • What about our paid accounts here? I've chosen to support this site and your efforts with it. Does that mean we lose it all if we go someplace else or do we get something of equal value where we'd move? I paid for permanently insane for a few accounts now, so I wonder about that.

  • Roleplaying *should* fall under the Fair Use clause the way that music videos on youtube/other fan works tend to, but here's the thing -- Roleplaying isn't something regulated? It's... playing pretend. That's not illegal and VASTLY DIFFERENT from saying you ARE so and so. So people shouldn't worry about that.

    I think we're fine under offensive content/harmful content. No one is posting child porn here or distributing it. It's all really just written word. I don't see that being much of an issue either.

    Are IJ's current servers failing? The outages really haven't been that big of a deal, but knowing more about what's going on there might be helpful. More than happy to donate to upgrading servers.
  • there is a lot of offensive content i'd be worried about on the site, like it's been said i'd rather suffer a little downtime than see journal after journal suspended. it's not like i'd worry so much as a lot of the more sensitive sls people ask for in ratedx (incest, abuse) and so on, and then where is the line drawn? no thank you
  • i think i'm fine with moving to aws. it seems like it would be more reliable and less of a headache for you. plus aws is pretty pervasive. they host a lot of different websites already.

    my main concern would be about pricing. i don't know how much aws costs, but would that affect how much we pay on our end? would it free up resources to work on the site's code at all?
  • I RP on IJ. It does concern me about infringing content. I put up disclaimers saying its a fanwork and not for profit. If AWS offers stability and Dreamwidth is there already, I'm open to a possibility that its a good hosting option.

    I am more worried about AWS cracking down on IJ over offensive content. There's some things asked for on request coms that can make skin crawl. I don't know if DW has anything similar? But this might cause problems for you where offensive content is concerned.

    If DW is over at AWS though, if its more affordable, and if its easier on you, I'm OK with AWS as an option. Anything to keep the site from going away entirely.
  • is AWS the only service you've considered? There are services that use cloud based servers that would allow you to control the content of the site like usual and still have the support of a parent host. Just a suggestion to look specifically into hosts that allow adult content, because we'll be far more likely to not wind up with content-based issues down the line.
  • re: alternate plans for a hardware fundraiser mentioned in another comment

    I know AWS provides a lot of support. If you went with this option instead, would the quality of support be on par? Or would everything fall on you?

    I understand people have concerns and appreciate that you want an open dialogue with your customer base, but your customer base has to look at you as the technical expert here. People are concerned that they will lose their writing, their journals, their paid accounts, their icons during the migration. As the technical expert, it is up to you to answer those questions and concerns and not necessarily automatically default to another solution.

    Upgrading to new servers doesn't necessarily negate the concerns either. Again, you have to tell us what to expect from that kind of migration. Is upgrading to new servers a cost effective solution if you will need a fundraiser for it? I assume some upkeep will be necessary which will also cost money.

    As for the concerns that people will have to move to Dreamwidth to escape Terms of Service, you've already established that DW is already hosted there.

    Thank you for pushing progress on IJ. Your transparency is so appreciated.
  • Just echoing what a lot of role players seem to be concerned about. We don’t want to violate any code or not be able to play our games the way we do now. I’m personally okay with whatever down time happens if we stay where we are, as I haven’t seen or had that much of an issue. I also like the prices and the layout of how it is now and wouldn’t want to lose any of my entries/content.
  • My main concern as a role player is about intellectual property rights. How would AWS handle the content it hosts? I know, for example, with Amazon's photo albums, in their terms and services, once you upload a photo they can use it however they want, because in the terms and services you agree to let them use your photos.

    With that in mind, it worries me, that the our writing that will be hosted by them could be used by Amazon. Is that a possibility?
  • I'm going with a 'be bold' recommendation...

    I don't know anyone there, if I did, I'd help, but AO3 has a gaggle of lawyers that do pro bono work for AO3... maybe you can ask around if someone there would give you some non-binding legal advice about what some of the RP folk are asking... worse case is that they say 'no'...

    As long as you've investing time in looking around...

    But I've supported servers and it's hell when something goes down (and you've done a great job keeping things running!), so you have to do what's best for the site in general.
  • Echoing everyone else in that I use IJ solely for RPing (and have done so for over a decade and have spent a whole lot in paid/perm accounts, and would love to continue to do so), so my main concern is that it won't suddenly become livejournal/tumblr and have some out of nowhere restriction in content that means risking being banned or having content deleted.

    The bit about 'offensive content' is worded vaguely enough to be concerning at least, because sure stuff like CP is off-limits anywhere, but what about anything else?

    What if we played out violent scenes? Or things with adult content? Is that obscene or inappropriate enough? Are we banned from anything 'non-consensual' even if it's as ficticious as the latest GoT episode? Does it make a difference if it's obvious fiction? Would things such as f-locking entries be enough to keep us covered, or would we have to keep all content family-friendly, as tumblr currently expects users to do?
  • The whole statement of what is or isn't unactable in that term of conditions is subjective. As a reminder, Tumblr just barred a long list of what is offensive and not allowed, by their opinion. That would include people in swimsuits, because you can see skin, or a woman I know who posted a photo of herself spinning yarn-she had bare arms. Censorship is censorship, you can choose what you do or do not want to allow on a site, including this one. However you will also lose members with overcontrolled censorship. Please seriously consider if you can afford to, or want to, lose paying members before making changes. FWIW I AM a paying member, not a free user. And I won't be hanging around if I lose what little control I have over content.
  • * Offensive Content. Content that is defamatory, obscene, abusive, invasive of privacy, or otherwise objectionable, including content that constitutes child pornography, relates to bestiality, or depicts non-consensual sex acts.

    Some fanfic depicts non-consensual sex acts. For that matter, a whole lot of mainstream romance depicts non-consensual sex acts; it's just considered okay if they "fall in love" after.

    And the "otherwise objectionable" clause can be used to selectively ban anything the reviewer dislikes. This is always the case online - most TOS's have something like that - and it comes down to: do you trust the reviewer. I trust the staff here, who are in favor of fannish content and have a hands-off approach to content that isn't bothering anyone on the writer's friendslist.

    I don't trust Amazon's reviewers, should they decide to look over InsaneJournal to decide if its content is suitable for their servers, or their business development plans, or whatever other reason they might discover to start investigating the contents of sites they host.
  • Sent you a note on FB.

    I happen to do this for a living and would be willing to offer you my knowledge free of charge.

    Just let me know if you're interested. I'm not an expert in Terms of Service per se but I am in Cloud, HCI, and Hybrid. I might be able to help you navigate some of the other matters depending on what you want to do.
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